Women are Irrelevant to the Church
Ann says:
I have always wanted to say this on FMH, but haven’t, because I like it there, and I only think this way 80% of the time…
Women are irrelevent to the church. We are breeders. Our only purpose is to produce and raise righteous priesthood holders. We are only valued in our abilities as long as those talents are channeled to encourage the breeding of priesthood holders by our sisters.
Thank you. I feel better.
I have always wanted to say this on FMH, but haven’t, because I like it there, and I only think this way 80% of the time…
Women are irrelevent to the church. We are breeders. Our only purpose is to produce and raise righteous priesthood holders. We are only valued in our abilities as long as those talents are channeled to encourage the breeding of priesthood holders by our sisters.
Thank you. I feel better.
Comment by Ann — July 8, 2005 @ 2:20 am
Ann, so what do you think the other 20% of the time?
I can see why you think this, as I have talked to men who pretty much see it this way. Fortunately, they are a tiny minority, at least those who would actually say it and not just think it. I have no idea what % of the population actually think this way, but I like to think and hope it is a minority.
The Scriptures are unequivocal on the ideal relationship between man and woman, they are to be united and equal in marriage. Period. The Priesthood is not an authoritarian means of religious facism for administering a beaurocracy, it is a spiritual means of service to help people be born again.
Comment by Kurt — July 8, 2005 @ 11:18 am
Good post. I don’t see how the church could function w/o women.
But even if women were viewed as breeders only, how are they then irrelevant? In this physical realm breeding is the purpose of men and women w/o which our species doesn’t continue. In effect, in our earthly existence, life is a struggle to pass on one’s DNA, and when someone doesn’t breed (or at least nurture adopted children), it’s as if they never lived. Seems like the women’s role in carrying the reproductive burden is the most important role to me. Hence why women are so much choosier w/ who’ll they’ll breed w/ vs. males. Check out the Shakers if you want to see what happens to a religion that doesn’t breed and only grows by converts.
BTW, in the “a woman is a life support system for a vagina/womb” viewpoint, she is the breeder for a next generation of women and men, as both are needed to perpetuate the species. And a guy who holds that viewpoint is also saying that a man is a life support system for sperm delivery on demand.
Comment by Steve (FSF) — July 8, 2005 @ 12:48 pm
The worst thing to be as a Mormon? Gay (male or female). The next worst? Single female (they don’t even GET to breed).
Comment by Pal Zoe — July 8, 2005 @ 3:10 pm
PalZoe,
Good points that both warrant further discussion. If you want, at this site you can even start a separate post yourself on the struggles our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters face and another post about the challenges of a single straight LDS female running out (or has run out) of time to reproduce. I hope to see you post soon.
I’m ok w/ leaving the “plight” of a single straight LDS male in a different category, because it seems to be nature’s way that not all males reproduce, but nature doesn’t ever seem to leave a healthy womb to waste that way we humans do in our modern society.
Comment by Steve (FSF) — July 8, 2005 @ 4:13 pm
Men make policy. Men implement policy. Men administer the sacraments. It’s a man’s, man’s, man’s, man’s world…
Women are paid lip service to their value and then mostly ignored. The implementation of the Young Women’s program is a particularly striking example of how women are viewed by the institutional church.
It doesn’t really matter how individual men feel. Until there aren’t enough women to go around for all the men to breed with, it’s not going to change. And Mormon women are faithful, in spite of their superfluity. They may be irrelevent, but they aren’t leaving. Is that a word?
What do I think the other 20% of the time? That the church is suffering from its artifacts of the 50’s; that the church is ALWAYS at least ten to twenty years behind societal norms, and sexism is especially entrenched. That maybe by the time my five year old is a grandfather, his granddaughter can be an elder. But I wouldn’t bet on it.
Comment by Ann — July 9, 2005 @ 2:25 am
Furthermore: the priesthood is the power and authority to act in God’s name. It is, by definition, God’s to bestow and God’s to withhold. He gives that power to whom he will. The church’s policy of exclusive and narrow distribution of that which is not theirs is nonsense.
If God gives me the power and authority to act in his name (and who is to say he cannot?) then I have it, regardless of ordination or line of authority or white shirt and tie or genital structures.
Comment by Ann — July 9, 2005 @ 2:31 am
Ann,
Thanks for the follow-ups. I have a lot of beefs w/ the church too, our leadership being too old to effectively run a world wide church among them. And, as the father of four daughters, I know well the unfortunate disparity between the young women’s program vs. the young men’s you’re talking about, but when I look at the specifics, it always seems the local leadership is to blame for the disparity.
On the irrelevance issue, even if I were to concede that Mormon women are little more than breeding stock, that is still hardly an irrelevant role, certainly not desirable, but not irrelevant.
To cut to the chase, are both of us staying for similar reasons? That is, our complaints aside, for whatever reasons, we know this is where we belong?
Comment by Steve (FSF) — July 9, 2005 @ 8:15 pm
I’ve been pretty vocal about complaining about the disparity between the YW’s program and the YM’s program in our ward. (Not to anyone in particular, I just find myself complaining about it a lot.) The YW leaders are great, it’s just that the YM leaders are all young surfer guys who take the boys on regular camp outs, surf/snowboard trips, etc. The girls make quilts.
Last year boy’s camp was a week long. Girl’s camp lasted 3 days. I don’t remember why, and I’m sure there was a valid reason for it, it’s just not fair.
I haven’t been complaining about it in the hopes that someone will hear me and make changes–I’m sure the YW leaders are doing all they can and I by no means could do better! I’ve just decided that every time my son gets to go on some fun activity and my daughter doesn’t, I’m going to do something with my daughter and she can invite whatever friends from church she wants. The boys went camping over night recently, so I had the beehives over for a pool party.
Comment by Susan M — July 9, 2005 @ 10:24 pm
Susan,
I have been in wards where the YW program was a lot better than the YM program. The YM program is BSA defacto, and if you dont have some avid adult scouters and kids who are interested in scouting then your YM program is going to be bad. Its up to the individual adult leaders to make the YM/YW programs. Ive seen both bad and good. The ward where I served as YM pres was bad because my counselors did pretty very little because of other obligations, there were relatively few YM and they werent interested in scouting, and so the YW program in that ward was awesome and ours was weak, at best.
Ann,
With respect to women and the Priesthood, it is the Lord’s Priesthood and He has never generally given it to women, not in the OT, not in the NT, not in a contemporary setting (except exclusively limited to Temple use). Prophetesses do not need the Priesthood to be a prophetess. The problem isnt selective disbursement of the PH, the problem is people, and women are just as prone to be subject to D&C 121:39 as men. Are there men who abuse it? Yup. Its a Priesthood of service, not a Priesthood of Authoritative Beaurocracy. The Lord makes that perfectly clear. But, its very hard to actually do it, regardless of male or female.
Comment by Kurt — July 12, 2005 @ 10:45 am
Ann,
You are right. LDS men kindly ‘tolerate’ women in church. They, and most LDS women, actually believe that LDS women are treated correctly in the LDS church. Pres Hinckley always bleats about how the women have their own organization. …Ummm except the men choose the leaders of it. So is it really the women’s organization? No. It’s false freedom. The men choose the RS leaders that influence the local RS leaders that influence the women of the church. They only choose women who are fully into following the men’s dogma. The LDS culture is so steeped in women being ‘helpmates’ (as taught to them from birth onward) that no one sees LDS gender relations for the farce it really is.
Here’s a great commentary, that every LDS leader (or male for that matter) should have to read regarding LDS gender relations as related to LDS women and depression http://home.teleport.com/~packham/prozac.htm
And Kurt’s 2nd paragraph in #10 is just a gem. –Using the scriptures to justify the role of women. Of course, men justify their authority through the scriptures. Scriptures were written by men who looked at women as little more than property (who thought that women should, for the most part, keep their mouths shut). The scriptures are as much about control as they are about faith. If you don’t believe it, then you haven’t read the Bible from cover to cover. Just for starters, the Bible keeps women in their place, blacks in their place and slaves in their place. For god-inspired instructions on slavery see Exodus 21 (http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/21 ).
Want to see men twist god around in the scriptures? This American Life has a great commentary by Julie Sweeney at: (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/pages/descriptions/05/290.html ) Click the “RA” picture to start the Real Audio archive of the show and go 37 minutes and 25 seconds into the show. Here is the direct Real Audio link: ( http://www.thisamericanlife.org/ra/290.ram ). Inspiring stuff… But the BOM is perfect and the Bible isn’t you say… Sure, just don’t pass out and have god command your head to be cut off for the ‘greater good’. I mean, god is GOD, and god could have provided the brass plates without killing anyone. (Note, I almost said “and HE could have provided”, but then I would be perpetuating the male religious power myth even further.) That is the ultimate male twisting for their own benefit, that God is a righteous male who was once just a righteous normal male just like us (your male leaders). Whatever. No wonder Utah women have the highest Prozac rates in the nation.
Ann, your original post was actually way to kind. Teach your kids so they can get beyond this ridiculous invented role for women.
Comment by Hank — July 13, 2005 @ 9:05 pm
I think Ann is wrong. Women are not irrelevant in the Church. I know I sound like a conspiracy theorist with this, but men have always controlled women in order to get women to do what the men want them to do. Women have the power to create children (yes, men have a small role to play, too), and men appropriate this power for themselves by controlling what women can and cannot do.
The Mormon church embodies and encourages the idea of women as property. Look at the current discussion about the temple on the blog “Times and Seasons”. This is what Mormons believe in their most sacred ceremonies - that women do not have a separate relationship with God, but have to go through their husbands. This idea contradicts a lot of what the General Authorities of the Church are saying to placate the masses and investigators, but the bottom line is that the men in the Church believe that the women in the Church are there to serve the men. That’s why women are still forbidden to work outside the home. If you let women get their own economic power, they will be harder to control.
Again, a lot of this is my stream of consciousness rambling, and I know a lot of very good men in the Mormon Church, but the doctrine and culture of the Church is very damaging towards women. The most tragic is that the women in the Church generally sit back and take this kind of treatment as if they deserved it. When I read the kind of mental gymnastics these very smart, true believing women have to go through to justify their desire to be “equal” to men in the midst of doctrine and practices that treat women like property, it makes me so sad. The Church has successfully intimidated women from working to effect change from within by excommunicating outspoken women, and ostracizing those who are not satisfied with the status quo.
I don’t think anything will change until the women in this Church want it to change and work hard to change the current misogynistic culture. Unfortunately, I don’t think this is going to change anytime soon.
Comment by Lucy — July 14, 2005 @ 4:02 pm
Good post M-PJ.
Comment by Hank — July 14, 2005 @ 9:45 pm
Sorry no replies for so long; I was on vacation.
Why do I still go? Read my guest post on BCC:
Why do you stay if you don’t believe?
The “personal revelation” thing may not be enough, these days. When it gets to the point where I spend most of the meeting comtemplating suicide, I think it may be time to move on.
Comment by Ann — July 17, 2005 @ 8:44 pm
i think the downward spiral for lack of female respect started when the church got AWAY FROM polygamy. they, as a general rule, have the utmost respect for the female gender from what i’ve seen.
Comment by toney — July 30, 2005 @ 4:00 pm
Ann’s 80% thinking is wrong theoretically. And I think actually. In the New and Everlasting Covenant a woman theoretically holds the Priesthood as much as her husband. She does not hold the same offices, because she has a different role. But neither do men all hold the same office. Christ centered Patriarchy truly provides a way for a woman to be equal with her husband, eventually even in government, even as it provides a way for faithful men to become equal with Christ. As things are today, many in Mormondom are concerned that women have too much control of their husbands in way too many cases. Women have their ways, you know. How can the bosses say they are irrelevent?
Comment by Richard — August 4, 2005 @ 1:08 pm
Wow, it is too bad that you feel that way. I don’t believe that is true, but whatever your experience is that has made you believe that is really sad. I am out in Ohio and maybe that makes a difference. Hopefully, things will change for you, because we are ALL daughters of God and I do not feel that men are better than we are. I am a true believer that behind these “great priesthood holders” are great and marvelous women. Believe me they are not better than we are.
Comment by Karla — May 2, 2006 @ 12:56 pm
Ann, I think you are 100% Right!
All you need to do is “really” start reading LDS books and History and the Truth will reveal itself. Too bad so many are in denial. The truth hurts sometimes!
So what do you think about polygamy. God says it is necessary! Even if the church denounced it on earth,(because of persectution) it has not been removed from the books and is still considered necessary to Live with God. Are you ready to share?
“Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law (polygamy) and ye shall be saved.” (D & C, 132:32)
‘”The only men who become Gods . . . are those who enter into polygamy.” (B. Young, J of D, vol. 11, p. 269)
“I bear my solemn testimony that plural marriage is as true as any principle that has been revealed from the heavens. I bear my testimony that it is a necessity, and that the Church of Christ in its fullness never existed without it. Where you have the eternity of marriage you are bound to have plural marriage; bound to and it is one of the marks of the Church of Jesus Christ in its sealing ordinances.” (G. Teasdale, J of D, vol. 25, p. 21)
‘Those Who Reject Polygamy Are d**ned!
“. . . he that abideth not this law (polygamy) can in no wise enter into my glory, but shall be d**ned, saith the Lord.” (D & C, 132:27)
‘”The Lord has said, that those who reject this principle (polygamy) reject their salvation, they shall be d**ned, saith the Lord . . . they will finally go down to hell and be d**ned if they do not repent.” (0. Pratt, J of D, vol. 17, pp. 224-225)
Comment by DC — December 12, 2006 @ 4:40 pm
It is not true that women don’t get the priesthood. Anytime that a relief society president is set apart she receives the keys to perform her job. This is the authority of the LORD, which is the very definition of priesthood.
Current social thinking is that if you’re not in charge of someone you’re irrelevant. Domination is the key to “being somebody.” At the end of each 3 hour block I stack the chairs and put the hymn books away. Maybe it’s not glamorous and doesn’t let me boss others around, but it is far from irrelevant.
Some people have suggested that “women have their own organization” but men pick the leaders. In the sense that God is a man - they’re right. Anyone who strongly believes that God doesn’t direct the church should go looking for another church - one they think God does direct.
Comment by Elias — June 6, 2008 @ 3:35 pm