Shelved Questions your Bishop Fears
What are your shelved questions: you know, the kind the bishop looks nervously at you for bringing up to him, and quickly gives you a list of (completely non-related) scriptures to read and pray about?
Here are a few of mine…
a) If Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother(s) are married, who married them (i.e. performed the ordinance/ceremony)?
b) Why isn’t Heavenly Mother a God too? Why isn’t she in the godhead (or if there are more than one mother, why aren’t they all in the godhead)? Even if they are not to be prayed to, why is there no administrative place for them?
c) Are there any women out there who really look forward to illions of kids in the next life? Why????/
d) Why are the recent prophets so old, especially since Joseph Smith was so young? Is it just because they can foist their fuddy-duddy values on the rest of us and make us feel guilty for breathing and having sex drives?
e) If the priesthood ban were really about the priesthood and not about racism, why weren’t blacks allowed to do baptisms for the dead in the temple before 1978 (not perform them, but be the proxies)?
f) The Kinderhook plates…
What are your shelved questions: you know, the kind the bishop looks nervously at you for bringing up to him, and quickly gives you a list of (completely non-related) scriptures to read and pray about?
Here are a few of mine…
a) If Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother(s) are married, who married them (i.e. performed the ordinance/ceremony)?
b) Why isn’t Heavenly Mother a God too? Why isn’t she in the godhead (or if there are more than one mother, why aren’t they all in the godhead)? Even if they are not to be prayed to, why is there no administrative place for them?
c) Are there any women out there who really look forward to illions of kids in the next life? Why????/
d) Why are the recent prophets so old, especially since Joseph Smith was so young? Is it just because they can foist their fuddy-duddy values on the rest of us and make us feel guilty for breathing and having sex drives?
e) If the priesthood ban were really about the priesthood and not about racism, why weren’t blacks allowed to do baptisms for the dead in the temple before 1978 (not perform them, but be the proxies)?
f) The Kinderhook plates…
Comment by Elmo — July 5, 2005 @ 3:24 pm
Good questions.
“a” seems too earthly a concept to apply to almighty deities.
I’ve often wondered why HM isn’t in the temple instruction as a 4th member of the G-dhead. They should have HM creating Adam and a male deity creating Eve. Sort of like an evolutionary natural model were each sex ends up creating the final form of the opposite sex. Elmo, I’ve been toying w/ an endowment based on the Matrix Trilogy because that G-dhead already includes HM and the devil too.
I don’t think “c” is a concept worth contemplating in this mortal existence. Call me an existentialist if you want (I’m not), but that’s how I feel.
I’m w/ you on “d”. We really need a mechanism like Lehi’s stepping down when one becomes too old to effectively conduct the duties of an apostle. They should draw a pension for their service and perform light duties if they so desire, but a full time apostleship is a younger man’s calling. And yes, it’s ridiculous to be lectured on sexual matters by old men who don’t have to deal w/ a young man’s libido. And don’t tell me they were all virgins when they married.
I think you know the real answer to “e” and you shouldn’t expect a candid answer from the church on this. BY was a bigot and a half who probably came up w/ the Mark of Cain BS to justify slavery in Utah. JS, the ardent abolitionist, would have never permitted that crap. Tough shit, apostle/prophets aren’t perfect. And BY did save the church even if I think he was an asshole. So who’s to say he wasn’t the right person for those times. I do think it’s fair the argue why it took so long to reverse BY’s crap.
In general, most bishops aren’t qualified to answer these questions and shouldn’t attempt answers unless so qualified. They should pass these questions to the SP who, in turn, has access to GA’s who can answer authoritatively for a member that poses them. I once heard Elder Ballard say this very thing; that it is unacceptable for Bishop to ignore or deflect questions of this type, but to use the church organization as outlined above to get definitive answers. He did say it was ok to get the member reading the scriptures, praying, etc while the answers were being procured.
Elmo, please provide more detail or a link to the Kinderhook plates. I’m not familiar w/ them.
Comment by Steve (FSF) — July 6, 2005 @ 2:36 am
My 6 year old was smart enough to figure out the King Follett ‘God was once a man’ doctrinal issue. He said, “If gods start out as men and they learn to become god, then where did the first god come from? It just doesn’t make any sense. They can’t be doing it the same way god did it or there wouldn’t be a first god.”
If you want really tough thoughts, read “Insider’s View of Mormon Origins” by LDS author Grant Palmer. He lays out all sorts of problems that are never dealt with at the pulpit.
Also, read “Suddenly Strangers” by the Morin brothers.
Comment by Hank — July 13, 2005 @ 8:13 pm
These are all great questions. Honestly, I don’t think you can be happy in the Mormon church unless you leave your reason and “intelligence” out of your religion. The Kinderhook plates are a good example of this. See also the “Zelph” story of the White Lamanite. Part of me wants to dismiss all of this negative press as propaganda of enemies of the Church. But a lot of the difficult events of history are well documented in the Journal of Discources and other Church publications.
There is a huge tension between the cultural Mormons who don’t, for example, even know that that the Church decried users of birth control as “evil” as recently as two generations ago, and Mormons who have done the “research” and want answers to their questions. There are only so many times that you can hear the refrain - “go pray about it”, to questions like “why was Joseph Smith having sex with the wives of other men, and then lying about it?”
Comment by Lucy — July 14, 2005 @ 4:32 pm
Lucy,
Welcome to Open Forum. But there’s no need to be so reserved here.
I question a lot of stuff too, but what’s wrong w/ the church changing with the times? When people had 10 kids and if you were lucky if two lived to adulthood, birth control probably was a major sin. Today, limiting family size is essential to support the larger number of children than we raise to adulthood today. Between those extremes the church policy went through a transition. What’s wrong with that? I think the apostles could be a little more proactive about inquiring of the Lord on issues before they reach a crisis like reversing BY Mark of Cain crap, but they’re slothful about some of their duties. So what? I’m slothful about other stuff I should be more proactive about. Now, should some of the older feeble apostles retire to speed progress? Yes, most definitely.
I never took the Zelph thing seriously. First time I read the account I took it as a parable. In other words, JS came across the group of grave robbing saints and wanted to convey that this was the remains of real person who was due respect and they shouldn’t be disturbing the grave. Given the racism of JS’s time, the Zelph parable conveys the point much more powerfully than had JS just rebuked them for Indian grave robbing. Look at how BY imposed his bigotry upon all of us for generations with that mark of Cain BS which I think was just a doctrinal rationalization for BY’s toleration of slavery in Utah. JS was ahead of his time, but had to live in his time.
Can you do a separate post here about the Kinderhook plates? I don’t know anything about them.
Oh, I until last night I used to be Steve (FSF). I’ll explain the handle change later.
Comment by Steve EM — July 14, 2005 @ 5:20 pm
Hank,
Great to have you here and appreciate the candor. I know it ruffle feathers when I say this, but I honestly believe we’ve abandoned the KFD (thank goodness). It was never canonized, probably because it is suspect because JS delivered it so close to his end when he was under pressures we can’t imagine. Anyway, the God was once a man stuff? — that “doctrine” was already on the decline if not dead, even before GBH hammered the nails in the coffin. To be fair to JS, I think he was discussing eternal matters only which an aspect of which can be articulated in earthly space-time terms. Hence why I also object to so much LDS doctrine being based on the first vision. After all, Moses never taught the Almighty is a burning bush; yet that’s how we interpret JS’s account of his vision.
OK, Geoff J, have at me. All are welcome at Open Forum.
Comment by Steve EM — July 15, 2005 @ 2:43 pm
Hi, thanks for the welcome. I’m no expert on the Kinderhook plates, but Jeff Lindsay has a very good neutral to faith promoting explanation of what they are at this link below. You can also find lots of “anti” Mormon interpretations of the Kinderhook plates incident online - just google “kinderhook plates”.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProblems.shtml#fooled
Comment by Lucy — July 15, 2005 @ 3:11 pm
Steve (insert appropriate suffix here) -
Sure, some things are going to change with the times, but I’ve been under the impression that adultery is always bad. Right?
How are we to justify J.S. sleeping with other men’s wives and then lying about it? Seriously. This was bad news. In my opinion, I think J.S. was taken from the earth before he could do too much more damage to the Church. I wish more Mormons would feel comfortable pointing out that J.S. made some very poor decisions and showed a general lack of good judgment in some cases. This doesn’t mean that he wasn’t a prophet of God, but it means that we need to be honest and not deify men who were just that - men.
Comment by Lucy — July 15, 2005 @ 6:42 pm
imho (+ dozens & dozens (hundreds?) of 1800’s journals, revelations, church archives, letters, DHC, etc, read and scrutinized over the last 20+ yrs)
(a) the mortal (city Teman, planet Kolob) - in the temple, by the officiator.
the extraterrestrial marriages, maybe His Father, or His Grandfather.
(b) ALL of our Heavenly Mothers/step Mothers ARE GODS (fem. GODDESSES)
“administrative”, who do you think helped with all of the flowers (and other life) placed here on this earth?.:)
(i have thought for some time that one of my Mothers’ sense of humor came out when the platypus was placed here. another Mother, the seahorse…:). {if u spend time w/seahorses, they do tend to have an affinity toward human females}) [me too]
(c) can’t answer - not female
(d) imo - too old
(e)IT IS ALL about Priesthood (more in a another blog here)
(f) f for FAKE
#3 Hank, King Follet - GREAT discourse.
i think u might want to read more about the First Cause; J.S., B.Y.,J.T.,O.P., & others (mostly found in church archives - unfortunately, hard to get at; but WORTH the effort)
#4 Lucy, J.S. did not have sex with any woman that he was not married/sealed to. Some of his wives were “civilly married” to other men to protect the women; because of the HUGE anti-mormon/polygamy culture. He never committed adultery.
Steve, birth control is very personal - IF U INSIST, i will email u something about it. also, please see (a) above in this post.
please take care.
Comment by toney — August 2, 2005 @ 4:55 am
#9 (a)should start…(a) the mortal “marriages” (city Teman, planet Kolob) - in the temple, by the officiator.
Comment by toney — August 2, 2005 @ 5:00 am